You're not gonna catch me waving flags over my head
Looking straight and standing tall
I refuse to build the wall by adding my own bricks
That separate us all

I'd rather die than be a part of your pride

This ain't the homeland they've written books on
Never have been there, how would you know
Following footsteps that will get you nowhere
And living by some rules that were made up one hundred years ago

You're not gonna find me digging through my family tree
Just to find out who I am
I don't need to know that I'm linked to some murderer
To live on the same land

I'd rather die than be a part of your pride

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Originally posted by SickOfSlutes:
You're a moron

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quote:

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Originally posted by SickOfSlutes:
You're a moron

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please, do explain. explain to me why we should be so goddamn proud to be american. i mean, yeah, sure, i have a better quality of life than someone in, say, senegal (then again, you have to look at it by whose standards you wanna follow.)

But like Garret stated:

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"If people want to be patriotic because it helps them feel better then what's the big deal? It isn't hurting you. " --- Neo

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Christ...can't you find something else to whine about?...wait...strike that, I'm sure you could...

I'm sick of people wearing jeans! It's really starting to piss me off! And the GAP isn't helping any either! christ

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Originally posted by PunkMunkey:
I am not patriotic...while I do belive this country affords me a better standard of living than any other would, I am also aware of the fact that this county commits heinous injustices towards other nations and towards itself, however, I will not complain about another's right to patriotism...unless it infringes onmy rights...

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i wholeheartedly agree with everything you have to say, except for one thing... while although it is their right to have so much patriotism, some people are a lot more uptight about it than they need to be. there is a thin line between being patriotic and being a dumbass. unfortunately, a lot of people have already crossed it.

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: nose over tail ]

quote:

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Originally posted by SickOfSlutes:
You're a moron

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Originally posted by PunkMunkey:
I'm fucking sick of people complaining about petty shit...here's a fucking thought: IT'S THEIR RIGHT UNDER THE FUCKING FIRST AMENDMENT TO BE PATRIOTIC...if you don't like it, ignore it...that's YOUR right...

But like Garret stated:

Christ...can't you find something else to whine about?...wait...strike that, I'm sure you could...

Note: I am not patriotic...while I do belive this country affords me a better standard of living than any other would, I am also aware of the fact that this county commits heinous injustices towards other nations and towards itself, however, I will not complain about another's right to patriotism...unless it infringes onmy rights...

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jeez. i was just stating a thought. and its not like im saying people shouldnt have the right to do it. whatever floats thier boat. im just saying im sick and damn tired of it. its my opion. is it whining. sure. but im just stating my opinion. its not like this board has really been teeming with ideas lately either. sure a lot of my political and social opinions and ideas are carrying over to this, but i was just saying im fucking sick of it. besides, its not like we were bombarded with flags here and there and red white and blue this and the other before 9.11 is it? its kinda like getting sick of all the christmas decorations by the time christmas rolls around since theyve been thrown at you since thanksgiving.

and hey, i thought this place WAS about petty thoughts, whines and complaints

i dont exactly see conversations raging about how the government could better spend more than half of the billions of dollars going to the war on drugs or socio-economic budget issues or the crisis raging in africa. so why not say this?

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"its been 4 months now. i delt with it for the first month or so. maybe. its getting old though, would you not agree?"

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Plus, like Sartre said, your freedoms stops right where others' freedom starts. Just like when you see J-Lo too much on TV, changing channels you see her everywhere you feel like "someone should stop this". It's even ruining J-Lo's image. The same way, it might ruin USA's image cuz then patriotism is seen as something so commonplace that it loses its beauty.

Besides, never mix patriotism and nationalism and USA's everlong protectionism tends to make the line between the two ideas kinda blur.
Romain Gary once said : "Patriotism is the love of one's fellows, nationalism is the hatred of the others". That quote expresses how small is the step that leads nationalism to xenophobia.

I want to add this rant (and Kim knows how much I ranted about this):
durinf the olympics opening there was this ground zero flag showing.

I found that lame. Yep, respect to that symbol, okie. But USA don't fuckin own the olympics.
The spirit of the olympic games is actually to forget all the divisions between countries and unite them for a moment in a fair-paly sportive competition. Compete on a playgrounds instead of fighting on battlegrounds.
That's the idea.
Olympics haven't anything to do with politics (although Nazis in 36, russians in 80 and americans in 84 used it to express their power).

Has anyone ever thought that there might be an iraqi, afghan, cuban team that might be offende by the evidence of injustice (around 5,000 kids die of starvation in Iraq due t the embargo).

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Originally posted by El Guapo Vandal:
when it comes to thier world outlook. basically, its a "were the best.

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Well...uhhh...it's cuz we are the best country in the world. Sorry to burst you bubble, but really, what other nation even comes close?!?

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Originally posted by SickOfSlutes:
[QB]

Well...uhhh...it's cuz we are the best country in the world. Sorry to burst you bubble, but really, what other nation even comes close?!?[QB]

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i love you man, you perfectly exemplify my point of the closed minded american. what other nation comes close? well, ill give you a whole host of nations. hell, the entire western world (do you know what that is?) im talking places like the nations of the british isles, france, spain, germany, italy, switzerland, austria, luxembourg (which is considered by many to be a WONDERFUL place to live), belgium, holland, denmark, norway (which recently was rated as the nation with the highest quality of life), andora, iceland, san marino, sweden, finland, australia, new zealand, japan, canada. there are others that arent TOO far behind those either.

so please, define to me what the best country in the world is. is it cause we have a good military? many of my brothers, who are canadian, would laugh at you for that, as well as friends of mine who live in europe now. really. get real man. yes, we have a good quality of life here in the states. im not saying we dont. im just saying that it is exremely ignorant to say that were the best, cause quite frankly, there are a list of nations who are on or about on par with us.

also, it really depends on what your perspective of quality living is. im sure you could find people in third world, or developing nations (im talking places like cuba, some african nations, places like brasil, argentina, and so forth) who are quite happy with thier quality of life. hell, im sure you could live in havanna and have a nice life, or sao paolo or rio de janerio or johannesburg or istanbul or mexico city or medelin or caracas or bejing or bangkok or singapore or calcutta or dubai or jerusalem. in fact, do you know anything about the united arab emerates? people have a high standard of life there. as do many in saudi arabia and bahrain. one of my very good friends is from bahrain and he speaks nothing but good things about it. he was very happy there. youd be surprised to find that several arab nations enjoy a quality of life that you wouldnt expect, seeing as that im sure all you know about them is from what you see on the news, with the ever opressing taliban or sadam hussien. i aslo have israeli friends who are fond of thier home nation, and EVERY single person i know who has travelled there has come back saying great things. some african cities are nice as well, and the same is true of asia and south and central america.

so let me know where this whole "were the best and nobody comes close" attitude comes from...

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: El Guapo Vandal ]

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Originally posted by SickOfSlutes:

but really, what other nation even comes close?!?

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What other nation do you know? Puerto Rico ? Mexico ? That makes a big big world!

quote:

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Originally posted by SickOfSlutes:

but really, what other nation even comes close?!?

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What other nation do you know? Puerto Rico ? Mexico ? That makes a big big world!

We all know you love this country, so take the 8 foot flag stickers off of your car. And wake the fuck up, more innocent civilians have been killed in Afghanistan from retaliation fire than were killed in the World Trade Center.

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: John Ritter Kicks Ass ]

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"more innocent civilians have been killed in Afghanistan from retaliation fire than were killed in the World Trade Center. "

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...interesting figure...where did you get your information...I'm not saying it's wrong, I'd just like to know your source and I'd like to know whether those civilians were killed by American troops or Al-Quaeda...in any case, that's the whole reason I am not patriotic...the injustices commited by this country in the name of "liberty"...while I do support the efforts to bring to justice those responsible for the destruction of the WTC and the loss of countless lives I can't stomach the fact that it's at the expense of more innocents...

As far as ignoring this "epidemic" of patriotism it si in fact easy...it's just as easy as not paying attention...desensitization to the flags, stickers and patriotic rhetoric...it's completely within their rights to "show support" for their country, however blind or mindless...as long as that show of support does not turn into militant nationalism...that will only serve to heighten international tensions...

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: PunkMunkey ]

quote:

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by PunkMunkey:
while I do support the efforts to bring to justice those responsible for the destruction of the WTC and the loss of countless lives I can't stomach the fact that it's at the expense of more innocents...

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I know people have seen the movie Black Hawk Down, bu has anybody read it? If not, I highly recommend it. I'm almost done. anyway....

In the beginning, there's a part that talks about the Delta Force (D-Boys) and Army Rangers, and what we have them for and why they're called about. It mentions that yea, in a perfect world, everything could be solved with educated, calm discussion and resolve. The problem is that in third world countries and such, the majority of people aren't educated, and they don't do the discussion over tea thing. Case in Somalia. Everyone had a gun because they didn't know what the whole situation was, or how to break out of it. People were killing people for no reason. The USA came in for humanitarian aid, but there is no mission that is purely humanitarian. The natives feel we aren't trying to help, and want us out or dead, and they start shooting. We then have no choice but to defend, and it turns out that the situation can only be solved with guns, hence we send in our best to try and end it quickly. The US military is not a group of killers who want nothing more than to see blood. Others' blood will usually lead to your own. There is no want of killing civilians. However, in these cases, som civilians are turned into makeshift soldiers.

quote:

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Originally posted by PunkMunkey:
[QB]
...as long as that show of support does not turn into militant nationalism...that will only serve to heighten international tensions...
QB]

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quote:

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"The USA came in for humanitarian aid, but there is no mission that is purely humanitarian"

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Black Ops in the guise of humanitarian aid...that's what the U.S.'s foriegn policy makes use of...in the case of Somalia, why the fuck were we there?..."humanitarian aid" my ass...what business did the U.S. have there?...aside from maybe protecting U.S. interests on foreign soil...you don't need military/guns to offer "humanitarian aid"...our foreign policy allows us to intervene in situations where we don't belong...

It's a catch 22 though...if we do go into a country and try to "help", we're the bad guys for "butting into other nations affairs"...if we don't go into a country in the midst of revolution/turmoil then we're the bad guys becaue "we're the most powerful nation in the U.N. and it should fall upon our shoulders to aid those less established nations"...

and as for the innocents in afghanistan, theyre cared about just as much as the innocents in bosnia, where there was much ethnic cleansing, chechnyea, where the russian army was raising hell, southeast asia, who has suffered decades of militant leaders, not to mention the mine fields, rwanda, where civil war and ethnic cleansing has killed millions upon millions, south africa, where racism takes lives every day, central america, where a UNITED STATES FUNDED GOVERNMENT commited genocide against the mayan indian ethnicitiy, and literally wiped entire villages out...

anyhow...

as for militant nationalism... how about an arab man who was beaten to death outside of his shop in phoenix by a cacuasian american who wasscreaming stuff about the WTC a few days after 9/11. or the increased racism towards those of middle eastern/indian/persian descent. its pretty fucked up. its also disturbing to see companies making coin by selling "patriotism kits" for $20 a pop, capitalising on a horrific tragedy. and the people who buy into it... they wouldve been better off sending thier $20 to some relief aid or something like that. instead, it turns into a contest of who can show the most patriotism. who can have the most american flags on thier minivan. who can wear the most red white and blue. that is where it crosses the line with me...

quote:

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Originally posted by SickOfSlutes:

Well...uhhh...it's cuz we are the best country in the world. Sorry to burst you bubble, but really, what other nation even comes close?!?

And really, if you and that bitch k r i s t i n have so much of a problem with the place you live then get on a boat together and travel 90 miles to Cuba and have a wonderful life.

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